Round Table: Innovation, Past, Present and Future

Welcome to another MMOMFG Trainwrec…er…Round Table. That’s it. Strap yourself into your toddler car seat, grab a jar of beer, and prepare for take off!

Cam: As technology grows faster and faster in the gaming industry, it seems that innovation is the key to success. With none of us working in the industry, it’s unrealistic for any of us to assume we know what is coming down the pipeline or what is even possible. That being said, what would you like to see from the video game industry moving into the future i.e. technology, game play, graphics, etc? Or, are you happy with the current state of affairs and prefer an “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approach?

Dustin: I’d state that I am fairly happy with the current state of gaming; however, I am always up for new innovation that leads to connecting the gamer to the game. If it means expanding a game’s online connectivity, such as linking your in-game character to an online site where you can review his skills, talents, ratings against others or just learn more about the lore beyond just sitting at the game, then that would be on interest to me.

It is no shock that I love MMO games, but when it comes to most console titles, I am pretty quick to put them down if they aren’t a sports title like FIFA or an MMO like WoW. I like building up characters and utilizing them over a long period of time, but most console games don’t really offer that unless they are RPGs. I spent about 10 hours playing Batman last weekend and close to 3 hours yesterday playing Prototype and I liked that I gained experience and could technically buy new skills and represent ‘leveling up’. Take that one step further and allow me to take my character online and compare him with others and tweak him to represent my style, and that would be amazing for gaming in my opinion.

Justin: I think if/when the next consoles come out (my guess is by 2011) they do a better job at making it a more durable product. Yes this might be a direct shot at the 360, but if Microsoft hasn’t learned from it’s mistakes people will be furious.  There’s no reason to release such a haphazardly made product.  Also, I would like to see online play better streamlined into the whole community.  Xbox Live has done this pretty well so far, and I think the additions of Facebook/Twitter/last.fm will make it even better, but I’m looking for someone or something to make my online experience even better.  Something that cuts out %50 of the douchebaggery that occurs by online players. Something that scans for cheaters and bans them instantly. Some type of smart AI system that will actively find any scum bag currently quitting out of NHL games early, cheating on Call of Duty, or causing a racial war in Halo.  Upgrades and graphics are all fine and good (and expected) but if you can police the online community in an effective way, you’ll have my dollars.

Dustin: I agree about the online policing. It has really continued to become a worse state of affairs when online gaming where I instinctively unplug my headset before playing an online game, expecting to hate the person on the other end of the headset, if it isn’t a friend of mine. I’ve had too many horrible experiences playing with terrible human beings and don’t expect any other result when getting online now. If there was some sort of IQ test XBOX Live could give you or you had to scan and send in your high school diploma or college/university diploma to prove your intelligence, then it would only rank you against people on an equal level, the experiences would be much better. There are ways of ranking people higher or lower and also tracking their disconnect ratings, but honestly, who really takes the time and half the time the little dickwads actually enjoy their experience with the other scruds.

Online policing or even random game monitoring by ‘GM’ types would provide a much higher standard of gaming and fun for most.

Brandon: One thing I would like to see that is probably unrealistic would be fewer limitations on player input.  Essentially I’m talking about complete virtual reality, which is why I say it’s probably unrealistic.  But if you look at games like Mass Effect or the upcoming Star Wars: The Old Republic (or either of the KOTORs for that matter), you have an experience where choices, especially dialogue choices, impact your game experience.  What if you weren’t restricted to the preset choices they give you?  What if you played a game wearing a headset and conversed directly with characters in the game?  Now if you could combine that with come of the games we have seen that have totally interactive environments, we would be talking about a game experience that could be completely unique for every person.  AI limitations probably would preclude this from ever happening, but it is something I’d like to see.

Justin: Well, that’s what Peter Molyneux was trying to display during the Milo demo, but unfortunately it was a scripted event. Still though, it did do exactly what you’re describing.

Dustin: With Project Natal, it looks like you’ll have a lot of control over your actions in the game, it won’t be the same as controlling dialogue, but if you want to jump and spin 360s all day Tony Hawking to your heart’s content, then by all means do so.

I like the idea of controlling everything of your characters in game and I’d be completely for that.

Justin: Well part of the idea of Natal’s camera is that it can read your expression and identify speech through it’s microphone.

Andrew: Gaming innovations I’d like to see in the future exclusively revolve around game play and game play mechanics.  Graphics have reached a point of realism that I don’t think they really need to improve much more.  I want new ideas, whether tame or wacky, around exactly how a game is played, how a player interacts with characters and surroundings.  Innovative mechanics are what really get me excited about new games.  Take Resident Evil 5 for example, that game fell flat on its face for me.  It took a mechanic that was celebrated in RE4, a title that won Game of the Year awards, and copied it 100%.  They basically cranked out the same Resident Evil game with new characters, story, and next-gen graphics.  No thanks, Capcom, your game simply wasn’t worth 60$.

Brandon, your idea of a more immersive experience where you aren’t limited to a list of dialogue options but can say whatever the F you want is fantastic.

Cam: I think for me it’s similar to what most of you are talking about: finding new and better ways to engage the player. It doesn’t necessarily have to be something crazy (although sometimes crazy stuff turns out to be really fun). Mainly I want to see more engrossing game play mechanics that make the player forget he’s playing a game. Think about your favorite genre of games. What would you do to improve them on the whole? RPG’s are my favorite. But when playing an RPG, even the best ones, there’s always the feeling in the back of your mind that you’re simply playing out the story rather than making decisions (although sometimes I like that, almost like you’re ‘playing’ a book–I think this concept needs to stick around because sometimes it’s better to listen to an incredible story rather than try to make your own). This is why I enjoy the concept of MMORPG’s–they make you feel like you are making your own choices in the game (and you are, but they don’t have any bearing on anything usually). So I like Brandon’s line of thinking: figure out not only how to make a player feel unique in their world, be it online or off, but how to make their decisions matter in that world. Do that, and you will have a very special game.

Another thing that I think helps pull the player into the game is physical motion, specifically exhibited by the Wii in games like the new Zelda (and hopefully Monster Hunter Tri!). How do you guys feel about IRL motion as a game play device? Do you think it’s good and should continue to be explored? Or are you lazy bums who want to get fat just using your thumbs?

Brandon: That’s a good question.  I think people initially are engaged just by the novelty of movement (Wii) but if the games cant stand on their own merits or if the movement is awkward and clumsy people will lose interest (Wii).  As far as unlimited decision making, I actually have a really good idea for a game that makes use of that.  My dad actually came up with it.  I’m not going to tell you what it is though, because I don’t want anyone else making money off of it.  Look for it in 2025 though.

Cam: He better tell me about it or he’s not getting a present this year for his birthday.

I think motion has a long way to go as right now games are either only partially motion controlled, or like you said they are clumsy. But honestly, the idea of swinging the controller around like a sword is too awesome to me. Nintendo is on the right track with Wii Sports as far as seeing what neat things you can do with the motion, but so far nobody to my knowledge has come out with a game that not only uses the motion for a majority of the control but is also a really quality game by itself. I think motion should continue to be explored, but I definitely don’t think it’s the only interesting track that is advancing game play in the industry. In other words, I don’t think it IS the future of video games; rather, it’s just PART of the future.

Justin: I suppose that’s the interesting part about Natal. If it works properly you wouldn’t even need a controller!  Sony’s new motion control looks to be just as good but I’m afraid that needing to buy the eye toy plus the controller might make it expensive.  Only time will tell however the tech demos for both looked extremely impressive.

Dustin: I think it is frustrating you have to buy the Eye Toy for PS instead of just incorporating it into the new technology. That thing looked like a piece of S when it first came out and honestly, I don’t want to have to waste my money on something that should be provided when we no doubt have to dole out hundreds for the new technologies for motion capturing.

Nintendo had my attention when Wii first came out, but with a lot of games that have mediocre controls and the fact that I’m tired of playing family friendly, crap titles, I probably will just wait until Project Natal to enjoy swinging my arms around to control the characters.

Cam: I don’t know that you can fault Nintendo for that, after all they came out with motion controls, what, 3 years ago? It’ll be 4 years ahead of Project Natal’s projected release date. I would bet PN’s developers learned a ton from what Nintendo did already. Who knows where Nintendo or Wii games will be when it comes out? Also, I’m almost positive that you haven’t bought a Wii game in at least a year, or maybe even played one in that amount of time. I think it’s a little off base to act like it’s somehow failing.

Justin: No but I think you can fault Nintendo for duping the general public 3 years ago, then coming out with the Wii Motion Plus.  I mean, here’s an add-on that does exactly what the Wiimote was supposed to do and I’m supposed to feel like this was a leap in technology?  I don’t think so, but I do feel that MS and Sony have moved in a direction that surpasses what Nintendo has started.

Cam: So are you saying that Nintendo had the tech for Motion Plus, and held out on it so they could charge people for it 3 years later? Also, why do you say that MS and Sony are moving in a surpassing direction? I’m not doubting you, I just haven’t necessarily heard.

Justin: When the Wii first came out, Nintendo made it seem like it had this 1:1 movement.  I don’t know if it was ignorance on my part or just good marketing on Nintendo’s part but I think most gamers came away feeling like it was good but it still could be better.  Then when the Wii Motion Plus was announced a lot of people had the same reaction “Isn’t this what was promised in the first place”.  I think Nintendo was working on the tech right away, they’re too smart not to have been.  They already knew the limitations of their product and begun working to fix it.  I just think the way they sold it was shady.

Answering your second question, I believe MS and Sony are indeed heading past Nintendo just by looking at their tech demos.  Yes they might fall flat on their face but from reading the buzz about Natal and looking how Sony’s motion control does true 1:1 mimicking, I really think they’re going to come out on top if they price this just right.  Next year you won’t be running out to buy new consoles, just new peripherals that will make your console that much more entertaining.

Dustin: From the visuals, Project Natal and Sony’s hardware will both allow you to basically be in the game, not just controlling a character like Nintendo. The videos from E3 were so convincing that you are truly part of the game that it makes Wii look like a technology of the yesteryear.

Brandon: It is a technology of yesteryear.  When Natal and Sony’s motion control come out Wii will be 5+ years old.  You guys get stupider each week.

Cam: It IS the technology of yesteryear…It’s not like PN and the Sony stuff are coming out right now. All I’m saying is that it’s dumb to say Nintendo is making crap controls and games when they were the first to do it. MS and Sony are behind the times, just not the tech.

Cam: Nice. Great minds, amirite?

Justin: I don’t think they were behind the times; they were just in a different direction.  Once they made up their minds to do motion control I think they are two companies experienced in both hardware and software that they’re going to nail it.  Obviously to be continued….

Cam: Microsoft and Sony are making motion based games because Wii is kicking the crap out of them in worldwide sales.

Justin: I don’t disagree there at all.  And Nintendo has very genuine ideas.  I mean I think the Wii Fit fad was pretty interesting though I can’t say I use my balance board a whole lot (though I do partake in Wii Exercises once in awhile).  My initial point was I think Nintendo’s tech could have been better coming out the door.

Dustin: You asked the difference, Cam, in their technology from Nintendos. My point was that when these come out, Wii will seem archaic. Of course it is 5 years old, but every time a new system came out doubling the bits in graphics, it made the old systems seem archaic. Just because it is five years old when these come out, you can still state how it makes the old technology seem, well, old. These two pieces of hardware will add so much to game play physics and future gaming, way beyond what the Wii offered. Sure, they had more time and could learn from watching Nintendo’s success and technology, but this is heading towards next-gen gaming. The Wii did nothing for graphics and realism.

Justin: Or online gaming.  Which was the one thing I’d like to see altered for Next Gen Consoles.

Cam: Yeah I never disagreed with any of that. I said it was dumb to act like Wii failed because the motion wasn’t as good when it came out as PN will be. That’s like saying NES failed because its graphics are totally unrealistic when compared to XBOX 360.

Brandon: I think people frequently operate under the false assumption that Nintendo measures themselves by what Microsoft and Sony are doing.  MS and Sony will refine the technology that Nintendo pioneered and make it look awesome.  Meanwhile, Nintendo will come out with something completely different and continue to be somewhat of an outlier in the battle between Sony and MS.  Nintendo makes more money off of DS sales than MS or Sony make off the 360 or PS3.  I guarantee they don’t care how people will compare the Wii to the 360 or PS3 in 2 years.

Justin: I think Dustin was speaking on a personal matter.  I’d have to agree. I very rarely touch my Wii (oh my what a pun!).  Part of that is a weak system; another part is weak companies making bad games.

Now that the 360 and PS3 dropped costs, we shall soon see.

Cam: About 50+ million people or more would disagree with you re: weak system, weak companies, bad games, etc. The fact of the matter is that Nintendo innovates while MS and Sony refine. They are what is truly driving the gaming industry.

Justin: You make it sound like MS and Sony just leech off of Nintendo.
With this idea yes, granted, Nintendo gave it the legs it’s currently walking on.
But let’s not suck from their teet too bad.

I mean, when Nintendo comes out with Gamertags, achievement’s and HD gaming…shall we say that they’re no longer innovative?

Cam: They’ll probably utilize it, but not act like they’re the cock of the walk for it because they’ll have something else more innovative. Your example doesn’t mean anything. My statement is still true.

Justin: I never said your statement was false.  I was just giving an example of the shoe being on the other foot, is all.

If there’s any system right now that’s acting like a “cock of the walk” it’s the big N.
Why do you think they just now lowered their price on the Wii?  It’s not because they felt generous.  If they thought they could keep making money they would. But the fact is, both MS and Sony have begun denting their armor in sales.  Wii sales are slow, and Wii software sales are slow.  Nintendo had no other choice but to lower price sales.

But I digress, this was about future consoles, and I was merely trying to take the present and identify what will be different from the current situation.

Cam: Wii has outsold XBOX360 by over 20 million units and PS3 by 30 million. I don’t think they’re worried about their sales. Every console drops in price after a while.

Justin: I could care less if the Wii sold 1 Billion consoles. That doesn’t impress me  I’m sure half of them are barely used. The PS2 sold a buck-ton of consoles and that wasn’t truly “innovative” either.

Cam: I never said it was. But I can’t fathom how you think the Wii isn’t innovative.

Justin: Haha, I don’t think I ever said the Wii wasn’t innovative…if I did then I retract that statement.

Brandon: I’d argue that the PS2 incorporating a DVD player was, if not an innovation, a shift towards media consolidation that has become then standard today.

Justin: Except we already had CD, so it was just the logical step. And the PS3 uses Blu Rays.

Cam: That’s innovation on the inventor of Blu Ray’s part, not PS3′s. The concept of media consolidation, as Brandon stated, was already there.

Justin: I still think the shift from Cartridge to CDs was more of a shift.

Brandon: Cartridge->CD was about increasing storage space.  CD->DVD created the concept of a console that was an entire media center and not just a game console.  That’s how I view it, at least.

Cam: Also, tapes went to CD before cartridges went to CD, so who really cares about that?

Justin: I can see your point there. But the PS2 was a long cry from a media center, if by Media Center you mean a hub for all means of entertainment.  But yes it was definitely a start.

Cam: And that’s called innovation.

Brandon: How many people never owned a separate DVD player from their PS2?  The PS2 was a one-stop shop for entertainment.  Keep in mind we are talking about an era where digital copies of movies and music were still in their infancy.

Justin: Honestly I had like 4 DVD players.

Brandon: Well I had 0 so we cancel each other out.

Cam: Haha I still use a PS2 as a DVD player in my room.

Dustin: You nailed it Justin. I like new Intellectual Property and Nintendo regurgitates the same damn series once every 3 years and I’m supposed to poop myself over them? No thanks! I liked Zelda for a bit and I haven’t been a fan of Metroid since the first; however, people act like when these come out, they are world-ending games. I get the system has graphical constraints and all, but basing your popularity on a gimmicky control scheme through paddles and nunchucks instead of delivering truly amazing new titles every month or so sets them back in my book. Microsoft and Sony do very well because there are numerous games each month to look forward to. Nintendo you are lucky if a game sounds fun every 5 or 6 months.

Brandon: Yeah that’s what I mean when I say that Nintendo doesn’t measure themselves by what the other 2 are doing.  I think when the latest rounds of consoles were being developed Nintendo looked at the forecasts and decided that it was not going to be cost effective to try to get into a hardware war with Sony and Microsoft.  So they took a different route and tried to create new ways to play games, not just better looking games.  I’d say it’s worked pretty well for them.

Dustin: They nailed the market for kids and adults who want to have fun with their kids. Granted, that is where the majority of money is spent; however, I can’t claim what they are doing is that innovative anymore beyond the Wii Fit or first round of Wii games that came out, since they are slowly just pumping out generic Nintendo titles that feature characters used for 20+ years. They lead in sales and have driven the industry for years, but if you want something new, I don’t look to Nintendo to deliver some industry-changing genre or title anymore.

Brandon: What games do you play Dustin?  World of Warcraft and FIFA 200X?  That is some ground breaking new IP right there.  Nintendo has struggled getting 3rd party titles that can hang with titles like BioShock or Mass Effect, etc.  That is true.  But I don’t think they care.  They make games for an entirely different demographic.  I think a lot of people feel like you and Justin do, and I think that is fair.  For adult gamers right now, the 360 and PS3 have more to offer in the way of their library.  I just don’t think Nintendo cares though.

Justin: I have no problem with Nintendo’s IPs.  Yes I think they should create some new ones just for the sake of having something new. If their 3rd party titles suck, and they release a 1st party title once a quarter…then how is that innovative Brandon?

There’s a reason third party titles sell poorly, and maybe it’s because their controls aren’t as innovative as we were led to believe.

Trust me, if the Wii had good games, I’d be playing them.

Brandon: What companies do you look to to deliver “industry changing genre(s) or title(s)?”  I’m not sure I would view titles as changing the industry in any way.  They might raise the bar for people’s standards because they are well executed, but the gaming industry isn’t going to be revolutionized because someone made a better RPG than someone else.  Hardware is what changes the industry IMO.

Also, I don’t think either one of you know what the word “innovative” means.

Dustin: I buy and play more titles than you can imagine. New IP I’ve purchased in the last year include: Prototype, InFamous, CrimeCraft among many others. I get you think I only play two games, but I actually buy and play a lot of titles. In fact, I own Mass Effect and BioShock, as well. Adult-aimed games or not, at least they come out with something new and exciting every now and then. As for Nintendo,  I don’t care if Bowser has a secret he is keeping from Mario and Luigi or Zelda stuck a feather in his cap for the 48th time.

Cam: To be fair, you’ve never played Mass Effect. I opened it for you a year after you bought it.

Dustin: Prototype, InFamous and Batman: Arkham Asylum have provided more for gaming design and genre stretching than any Nintendo has in a long time. The control schemes for the Wii mote is innovative, but unless you have a bunch of fun games to play it on that are different than something I’ve already played, I won’t care. Cam stated I hadn’t touched my Wii in over a year. The reason why is that I haven’t had fun playing a Wii game in a long time. I used the freaking Gamecube controller to enjoy Super Smash Bros. Brawl because it handled better. The graphics in that game did not blow me away, but I had fun. If you can put out fun titles more than every six months, you’d keep my interest. However, Nintendo’s release date list for titles was so few and far between, I didn’t feel it necessary to even hook back up.

Cam: So you don’t think motion control is innovative??

Brandon: Dustin I can understand your logic and I think its fine.  I think you are in the majority of people who simply prefer the games they get on the other consoles to those that are out for the Wii.  That isn’t a problem.  The problem I had was you saying there aren’t any games that aren’t 20 year-old franchises, when 1) there are many games (which may be terrible for all I know) which are not recycled properties and 2) the games generally considered the best on the other consoles are games that have multiple iterations themselves.

Cam: Dusty, I get that you like those games more and even that you think they are just higher quality. And that’s fine. I won’t even disagree with you for the most part. But saying that XBOX360 and PS3 are more innovative than the Wii is just absurd. They are refinements of earlier consoles.

Justin: Maybe he means they’re more innovative because they’ve had more innovative games?

Cam: But that doesn’t mean anything. That has nothing to do with MS or Sony, unless they were the developer of the game.

Justin: Well, they sorta gave the hardware to do it?  And Brandon did say hardware is what leads innovation right? However I agree with you, I’m just guessing what Dustin meant.

Cam: But the hardware wasn’t innovative, it was a refinement of their earlier systems.

Brandon: I think software, i.e. developers, can be innovative.  I think hardware, i.e. console makers, is what is “industry changing.”  I don’t believe those two things are always the same.

Dustin: I was referring to innovation in gaming. As much as I’m excited about Project Natal and Sony’s upcoming technology, I would still rather have a game offering more features and depth to hook me than a gimmicky technology that is only slightly fun, which is what the Wii was to me. I first thought ‘holy crap this is awesome, played the games for a bit and then realized, well these controls kind of suck and there aren’t many games to play’. They never really met my expectations on that console and I basically gave up on it. It doesn’t mean Nintendo couldn’t come back with some brand new technology or another version of the controls that makes me think ‘holy crap this is awesome’ and it makes the 25 core games (that aren’t horse shit party games) better. If that were to happen, then maybe I’ll give it another try. Until then, I’ll stick to consoles that dump out fun game after fun game that compete for game of year awards with stunning new features, graphics and control, rather than most Nintendo games that seem to rest on their laurels of the franchise.

Brandon: I think that is a bit unfair towards Nintendo, Dustin, even though I agree with just about everything in your post besides the last sentence.  You don’t want to play the 10th version of Super Mario, I get that, but each successive version isn’t just slopping something out there to make money off of Super Mario 3′s goodwill.  They have all been excellent games in their own right.

Dustin: You don’t think Luigi’s Ghost Mansion and similar titles weren’t just slopped out there? I understand certain Nintendo series are well thought out and strong titles, but I mean sometimes to some players, enough is enough.

I don’t even think the new Mario Golf, Tennis, Kart are half as good as the original ones. Maybe because they aren’t as ground breaking or fresh as the old ones, but it is hard to take a series so loved and deliver it to a new console where it should be better, but isn’t. I’m likely not the only one who feels this way about these titles either.

Brandon: It doesn’t matter how many people think that way it still wouldn’t make it true.  You are making ridiculous generalizations that have no basis in fact.  Yes, title offerings for the Wii have been weaker than those of the PS3 and 360.  No one is arguing that.  But you act like Nintendo stopped putting any effort into their games after the SNES.

Cam: Like Brandon said, I understand what you’re saying, but it’s a blanket statement. Per Wikipedia:

Towards the end of 2007, Super Mario Galaxy was named Game of the Year by IGN, GameSpot, Nintendo Power, GameTrailers, Edge and Yahoo! Games. On February 7, 2008, the game received the “Adventure Game of the Year” award from the Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences at the Interactive Achievement Awards.[55] The game placed third in Official Nintendo Magazine’s “100 greatest Nintendo games of all time”.[56] On March 10, 2009, the game won the “Game of the Year” award at the 5th British Academy Video Games Awards.[57]. Guinness World Records ranked Super Mario Galaxy 29th in their list of top 50 console games of all time based on initial impact and lasting legacy.

And:

Twilight Princess received the awards for Best Artistic Design,[87] Best Original Score,[88] and Best Use of Sound[89] from IGN for its Nintendo GameCube version. Both IGN and Nintendo Power gave Twilight Princess the awards for Best Graphics[90][91][92] and Best Story.[92][93][94] Twilight Princess received Game of the Year awards from GameTrailers,[95] 1UP.com,[96] Electronic Gaming Monthly,[97] Game Informer,[98] GameSpy,[99] Spacey Awards,[100] X-Play[101] and Nintendo Power.[92] It was also given awards for Best Adventure Game from the Game Critics Awards,[102] X-Play,[103] IGN,[104][105] GameTrailers,[106] 1UP.com,[96] and Nintendo Power.[92] The game was considered the Best Console Game by the Game Critics Awards[102] and GameSpy.[99] The game placed 16th in Official Nintendo Magazine’s list of the 100 Greatest Nintendo Games of All Time.[107]

I understand this is not the case with every game they make, but all developers have great games and flops, and that’s a fact.

Cam: WELL THAT WAS A WILD RIDE WASN’T IT FELLAS?

Okay everyone, go take a nap.

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