Round Table: Rhythm Based Gaming?

As we enter into another week’s Roundtable discussion with the staff of MMOMFG, this week we are faced with a tricky question that left the editors having mixed emotions. It gets a little heated at times, but who doesn’t enjoy some heat in the kitchen? The question posed is “Do you actually enjoy rhythm based video games?

Dustin: I’d like to pose this question to you all with the influx of Guitar Hero and Rock Band iterations yearly and new games like DJ Hero, Band Hero and the like, are these still interesting and fun?

Andrew: Hell no. Rhythm games are dead, at least to me. I know they just released Rock Band: The Beatles and it seems like they’re pumping out more and more of these crappy boxes, but i think it’s all a gimmick. By releasing Rock Band: The Beatles or Rock Band: U2 or Guitar Hero: Metallica, I feel like Activision is just targeting niche pockets of uber-fans of the bands attached to these releases. It’s less about the actual games and more about the songs. And when that happens, in my opinion, the product becomes less of a game and more of an interactive album.

Rhythm games are like the Wii – not for hardcore gamers, not for me. These are for the casuals, people who, while decent girlfriend material, I don’t really get on with.

Justin: I enjoy them, but to be honest, I haven’t touched my Rock Band 2 stuff in nearly 8 months. It’s not something I play with by myself, and it’s not something I’m going to lug over to a friend’s house. I enjoy the concept of the games because I enjoy the music. It’s creates a fun party atmosphere but I’m not going to shell out another dollar for new instruments. I like the idea of creating your own songs and being able to upload them but not enough to go out and buy more software. I really wanted to get Guitar Hero Metallica but not being compatible with Rock Band 2 instruments (on the Wii) basically killed any ambition on further titles. Perhaps if I got it for the 360 or PS3 I’d be speaking a different tone, but c’est la vie.

Cam: I disagree with the idea that rhythm games are for casual gamers. Just go to Youtube and watch people play guitar and drums on expert in Rock Band and Guitar Hero. There is nothing casual about that. My issue lies in the fact that for the most part, these franchises have stopped focusing on innovation and now focus solely on new songs. It’s the same old thing and has become boring. If they want to reinvigorate the genre, they need to come up with new gameplay ideas, not new content.

I still think my favorite rhythm game of all time is Amplitude for PS2. The songs in it were awesome, and you weren’t restricted to any particular instruments, so you could use really any genre of music. And really, what’s the difference between tapping buttons on a controller and tapping pads on a drum kit (aside from the fact that I sweat 10 times more playing the drums)? The best part of Amplitude though was the multi-track set up. Not only did you have to focus on rhythm in the game, but you also had to manage multiple tracks all at once. It was totally sweet, and once you played the song once you could play it again and again trying to find the right method to get high scores and unlock new songs. I suppose DJ Hero might be similar, but judging from the screen shots, it still doesn’t look that complex.

As long as RB and GH keep puking out the same old thing, that genre is doomed. But I like the idea of rhythm games in general (Parappa what?).

Brandon: I don’t see how anyone who is anxiously awaiting the 20th installment of FIFA soccer can say with a straight face that rhythm games are dead. It’s a type of game just the same as RTS, RPG, fighting, sports, etc. People who like the game play experience in the first place probably still think it’s just as fun. I’m not sure how much you are expecting them to revamp the gameplay, it’s a game based around pressing certain buttons at precise moments. At this point, the draw for fans is being able to play songs they love. That is why the majority of the work being put into them is in creating note charts for new songs rather than changing the game significantly.

I think that they may have been a fad of sorts in that they had a big spike in popularity that may be wearing off now. But I think saying that they are a dead genre is a pretty dumb statement. If you don’t like them now, then maybe you just wanted to play what was popular at the time. There are still a number of people however that enjoy that gameplay and will continue to look forward to new song releases.

Cam: Yeah saying the genre is doomed was probably a bit dramatic on my part. I just get irritated by new releases of the same game but with new songs. Couldn’t that just be downloaded content? I guess they added online modes and stuff like that in RB2, but did a full Beatles version really need to come out? Or a whole GH devoted to Aerosmith? Aerosmith sucks, fyi. I just don’t think the genre is really progressing. And I know you can’t change the mechanic of hitting the notes all that much, but I do think my Amplitude example is a valid argument for making the gameplay more interesting, despite the fact that that game came out so long ago. I think I would just like to see them doing more to add to the game rather than assuming they can keep releasing the same 60 dollar game over and over again.

Justin: The difference between a new version of FIFA and a new version of GH/RB is that FIFA will cost you $60 where the latter will cost you $150 (or some sort of high price like that).

Dustin: I think the The Beatles: Rock Band came out to coincide with the re-release of the entire collection of their music. I guess by gaining the abilities to redistribute their content, they felt they could capitalize on the Rock Band game too, and they were right. The game has sold fairly well for only focusing on a single band.

My main problem with the genre of game is the fact that they will never stop with these now. There haven’t been Country versions or Rap versions or Ska or DooWop releases yet, and if Harmonix or Activision think they can make a buck on it, you are sure as shit going to see these games come out. If Rhythm-based games could get back to their roots with stuff like PaRappa tha Rapper or Amplitude, you’d likely see more people trying them now, then when they were first launched.

I don’t think we need a new Rock Band or GH game when it claims “85 songs from 83 bands!” when these are typically all the same bands we’ve already got from last year.

I feel I can enjoy a new iteration of a soccer or football game if they beef up the gameplay mechanics or make it have a bunch of new features. Rhythm-based games seem to shy away from adding onto the gameplay mechanics (which are severely limited), or features and focus on adding more bands for a wider audience (which is both good and bad). If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it… But if you’ve lost a lot of your initial fans from the series, people aren’t going to want to buy a new set of instruments and add-ons every 10 months as the norm seems to be getting set this way.

Cam: I disagree with you saying that stuff like PaRappa and Amplitude will get more people trying them now. I think the main draw for RB and GH was the instruments, and if you take them away, people probably will not be interested. I’m not sure I even believe DJ Hero will do nearly as well, because way fewer people are interested in DJ’ing as opposed to playing rock instruments. I think my point should not have been that rhythm games are dead or dying, because obviously they aren’t. They’ll keep making money, and keep making them the way they are. I just wish they’d try to do new things with the gameplay like in Amplitude, because I think it would progress the genre more and the games would be even higher quality (because honestly, even though I’m kinda tired of RB, it’s still an awesome game).

Beau: While I’ve still only played one rhythm-based game (GH3 for the Wii), I think these games will continue to be popular because they give lazy people a chance to pretend they’re good at something without having to put in much effort. I play the guitar and drums, and I can tell you that the video game versions aren’t really anything like the real thing, but they do a good job of simulating the fun part of playing them without all the hard work necessary to actually sound good.

If people put in the amount of time actually playing the guitar that they do playing guitar in Rock Band, they’d probably actually be decent. But then again, getting all the equipment necessary to play the guitar and have it sound anything like the real band is even more cost-prohibitive than buying the fake instruments, so I can understand why they don’t.

Personally I don’t find these games all that compelling because I get too pissed that they aren’t like playing music for real, but I can understand why a lot of people like it, and think that they’ll continue to be popular for that reason.

Brandon: I just don’t really get where you guys are coming from as far as improving the gameplay. What are they going to do to change up the way you play drums in Rock Band? Add more pads? The point is to feel like you are playing an instrument in a band. The gameplay innovation is done. They did it. There are some new features or modes they could toss in, but they are already doing that. If you are complaining it’s just that they haven’t added exactly what you want yet.

Beau: I’m with Brandon on this one- I don’t think they can do much more to add to the gameplay, especially since most people view these as fun games for parties and groups including amateurs. I don’t think the designers really intend for them to be super-challenging for hardcore gamers. I suppose they could add the multi-track stuff like Cam mentioned, but that really doesn’t sound like much more fun to me, just more work. Although there are some hardcore experts out there, I think they’re the exception. Sometimes casual games need to stay casual.

If anything, I think they should just do more downloadable content and less full-game releases, as I think they’ll burn people out pretty quickly with those. For example, how GH is giving away the Van Halen game for free when you buy GH5. I assume that they realized it wouldn’t sell on its own, especially with all the other game versions they and RB have released over the past couple of years.

Brandon: Beau I think you hit it on the head, just from the opposite end of the spectrum as me. I love heavy metal. My greatest desire is to be able to play guitar like Zakk Wylde or Kirk Hammett. That really just isnt going to happen though. I have tried, admittedly not very hard, to learn guitar on and off a few times. I just don’t feel like I have any aptitude for it at all. I can play GH guitar pretty darn well though. So for me, this is really an opportunity to live out my dreams of being able to play my favorite songs. I know that I am really only playing a watered down facsimile of the song, but its as close as I am likely to get.

Dustin: I’m impressed they’ve added the ability to basically let anyone upload songs from anywhere in the world and allow for nearly any song in the world to get added. In terms of gameplay, yes, they are finished on gameplay, since you can add 50 pieces to a drum kit, but it is all the same since you’re just hitting them. I think the main setback is that I can’t continue to have fun for 20 years playing the same game over and over when all they add is new songs. I think these niche games offer great entertainment and a lot of replayability, but unless you have friends online who want to play or are having friends over, there is an extremely limited audience that wants to play this game by themselves, hence limiting what the series has to offer in the long run.

If you could riff on the guitar like a real guitar, or play a drum solo and tweak the pitch/tempo/sound, then people could create “real (fake)” music with this and Band Hero might be a revolution in gaming. That is just my take on the whole genre.

Brandon: As I said, at this point it seems more like you are changing your argument. It’s not that they aren’t improving the game; they just aren’t adding the specific features you want.

Andrew: I’m saying that these games are for casuals and not hardcores because of the games themselves, not because of the way some uber-fans of RB play it. I just feel like the experience of these games is a shallow one. If you look at genres like RPGs and action/adventure games, especially the story-driven ones, i think there are much deeper gaming experiences to be had. Experiences where you’re able to connect to a character, understand where they’re coming from, and immerse yourself in the game via a connection to the characters emotions, motivations, etc. Not so much with these rhythm games. To me, playing a Nirvana song on Guitar Hero as Kurt Cobain is pretty close to listening to a Nirvana song and playing the air guitar – the real difference is you blink alot more playing air guitar.

Look back over your gaming careers for a moment – look at the games that have really stuck with you. The games you truly remember, the games you revisit years later, aren’t games like Rock Band or Guitar Hero. For me they’re games like Final Fantasy 7, Resident Evil, and Legend of Zelda on the SNES. 10 years from now, when you find an old dusty copy of Rock Band 2 in your attic – are you going to freak out and play it all night on your fancy holographic television? Hell no. However, if Square Enix put out a re-mastered HD version of Final Fantasy 7 tomorrow you know you’d be too excited to sleep tonight.

Justin: True, but you might remember some of the awesome parties you had and the fun time with friends you’ve gained during a RB rock fest.

Brandon: That is an asinine statement. Rock Band was a seminal gaming experience regardless of whether you like it now or not. You are projecting your gaming preferences onto the gaming culture as a whole with absolutely no basis in whether it is truthful or not.

Cam: Yeah I suppose you can’t do much to change or improve Rock Band. It is what it is, and it’s a good game. But does that mean it’s the apex of rhythm based games? Are they done improving? Can nothing new or interesting come out that’s rhythm based? I think the genre can do other things. What if you made a fighting game that was rhythm based? Or the combat in an RPG (I immediately think of Legend of Dragoon, which wasn’t necessarily rhythm based, but the timing aspect was there. Why not explore that?) You could even make a platformer rhythm based. Maybe that stuff is technically already out there but nobody considers it rhythm based. I dunno. Rhythm is a cool thing, and I think it can be used in really creative ways other than “I am playing a song on an instrument.” I’m not poo pooing RB, because I like RB a lot, but I think rhythm is capable of more. Are my questions pointless? Does anybody else care about rhythm mixed into other games, or do ya’ll just want straight up music games?

Dustin: The next person to mention Final Fantasy in a Round Table is going to get brained. Rock Band has included many fun gaming experiences that I’ll look back on and remember 10 years from now. Memories that come to mind include: Cam and my neighbors banging on the ceiling with a broom, The Alamo Drafthouse Rock Band Championships and getting booed off the stage for kicking the plug out for rocking too hard (and drinking too hard) and the amount of YouTube videos I’ve watched of full bands getting perfect 5 stars on all-Expert.

Andrew: But answer the question, Brandon. 10 years from now would you pick up the original Guitar Hero and be psyched to play it?

All I’m saying is that I wouldn’t, yet a few months ago I scaled a 20 foot high steel beam leading to the back porch of my buddies house so I could break in and acquire his old copy of Final Fantasy 8 and a PSOne memory card. (This B&E had the blessing of said friend, who was just on vacation, by the way) That’s the length I went to to play a game exactly 10 years since I first touched it.

It’s about the experience and as soon as the Rock Band or Guitar Hero experience is over, it’s over until you start up another song…and then it’s over again. There are deeper experiences to be had in gaming that will stick with you longer that the standard three minutes and thirty seconds it takes to play a modern rock song.

Brandon: I want games that aren’t impossible to play because they try to shoehorn in some weird rhythm gameplay aspect where it doesn’t belong. You know that I am a huge fan of Legend of Dragoon, and yes, that was an interesting take on combat and very well done in my opinion. But I have never been, nor will I ever be, in favor of innovation for the sake of innovation. If it makes sense, go for it. But don’t try to mix things up just so you can be those guys who mixed things up.

Also we primarily were talking about Rock Band and Guitar Hero, so I really don’t know what to think of your questions because if you had an rpg or platformers with rhythm elements they still wouldn’t be rhythm games, they would be rpgs and platformers with rhythm elements.

And 10 years from now if I had a huge party with a bunch of friends and beer, yes I would break out Rock Band and have a blast with my friends. Why do you keep trying to make these games something they are not just because you want something else? I am not saying you can’t prefer other game genres, because I do myself. But rhythm games aren’t going away just because you don’t like them. They have their purpose and people enjoy them for what they are. That isn’t going to change.

Cam: Why doesn’t it belong there? Why wouldn’t it ever work? Have you ever played a game like that so you know it wouldn’t work? If the entire game was centered around a rhythm combat system, how is it not a rhythm game? Are you saying every game that ever came out and was good was a no-brainer as to how it should play, and they never thought “Hey what if we did this? Wouldn’t that be cool?” And no, we aren’t primarily talking about RB and GH, those are just the most notable games so you gravitate towards them. We’re talking about rhythm games, and whether or not they can keep being fun in the future.

Andrew: Remember Squall’s limit break in Final Fantasy 8? Totally rhythm based. I think we should make it a goal to try and work Final Fantasy into EVERY Roundtable somehow!

Justin: I prefer 2D games.

Brandon: Cam, the things you are describing aren’t rhythm games, they are games that have some rhythm elements. Legend of Dragoon is an RPG with one small bit of timing play introduced. The rest of it was entirely menu driven. That was my point as to why we weren’t talking about them. i already told you that I thought Legend of Dragoon was awesome and that if developers can do things like that and execute it well I am all for it. But if every RPG ever released was just like your standard RPG menu combat, I’d be perfectly fine because it works really well and fits perfectly that kind of game. I don’t think you have to shake things up just so you can be doing something different.

Cam: It’s not about doing something different. I think it would be cool if the game was even more rhythm driven. What if you couldn’t attack at all unless you timed it to the music in the game? Wouldn’t it be a rhythm game? How could it not be? I guess the hearing impaired wouldn’t like that. But I really am serious. And I wasn’t using LoD as an example of a rhythm based game; I was saying that you can see a start there. I’d like to see it go further. Not because it would be different than the norm, but because I think it would be cool to play a game like that. Don’t criticize me for that just because you aren’t interested in a game like that and then turn around and tell Andrew that just because he doesn’t like rhythm based games it doesn’t mean they aren’t good.

Brandon: I didn’t say I wasn’t interested in a game like that. I said I would be interested if it was done well and made sense. I don’t want to play some crappy game and then be like “Well I have to give them credit for going outside the box.” What I have to give them credit for is ruining a perfectly good game by trying to be Mr. Fancypants Developer.

Dustin: Anyone want to play The Beatles: Rock Band with me?

All: No!

Well, there is another week’s Round Table discussing all the hard hitting questions that Chris Hanson is too scared to ask. Check back next Friday for hopefully another exciting question where we’ll ask you to take a seat right over here and enjoy some lemonade while we change.

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